Team Zeigler Discusses 6th National Award|EP126

The things that Aaron Ziegler has decided

Welcome everyone to the Driving Vision Podcast brought to you by the Zigler Auto Group. And here with me, Auto Group director of talent development, Mike Van Ryn. Welcome, Mike.

Hey. Thanks, Sam.

Be sure to subscribe to the podcast. Like it if you do, and leave a comment. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the special edition of the driving vision future of Zach Today podcast, where we bring team Ziegler in to talk about the latest award earned by the auto group. So Mike Van Ryn, director talent development, VP of talent and development.

Talk to us about what this award is and what it means to team Ziegler.

Well, Sam, we are super excited. Congratulations to our teams across the board on winning the national best and brightest companies to work for award Wow. 6 times in a row.

Wow. It wasn't enough to win it once, twice, 3 times, 4 times, 5 times. We just keep doing it 6 times. Like, how many other companies have done that, Mike?

You know, I don't even know, but, as our friend Jim Craig says, winners win. Yep. So that continuous improvement, and it's really just a nice tribute to all of our teams across the board.

Yeah. So speaking of winners, joining us also here today, GM here at the Kalamazoo campus, Zach Terrell. Zach, many of you know you from another winning tradition, which is football. You were a leading NCAA collegiate football quarterback here at Western Michigan. You took the Broncos to a, well, to a bowl game and had an incredible experience there.

You've brought that winning Trish in here to team Ziegler, so you join us for the, conversation today. Welcome.

Thanks for having me. Yeah. That was a long time ago, but I appreciate you reminding people. They might not know.

Given my age, it wasn't that long ago. How long ago

was it? It feels long.

How long ago?

The 8 this would be the 8th season since that's been. So I've been with Ziggler now for almost 7 years. So, yeah, 8 seasons.

By the way, Mike, don't you agree not that long ago? As we venture into this conversation, your last season with Western Michigan, what was your record? 13 and o. 13 o. Your first season with Western Michigan.

My first season starter, I was 1 and 11.

11. You became good at turning adversity into opportunity and learning how to execute in difficult environments.

Absolutely. And I know what it looks like to have a good culture, and I also know what it looks like to have a really, really bad culture. Yeah. And it direct reflection on winning and culture. Yeah.

And now everybody has different definitions for culture, but I don't really think it needs to be defined. You can just feel it. Yeah. And that's the beautiful thing about team Ziggler is it doesn't matter what store you go to or who you talk to or whether you see people at the Christmas party or different, developmental stages. You can feel it.

And you even hear that from speakers when they come in. They tell you, hey. There's something different about this place, and that's why we're a 6 time winner.

So you brought your background, your experience in sports to benefit the auto group here. Mike, we have a lot of other backgrounds across the auto group. So name some people that have come to our auto group from different disciplines and fields that have brought that commitment to winning and to executing. I think of our finance director in, Hoffman Estates, Charlie Trautsch. Right?

CPA, excellent in that field, decided, hey, I wanna go into the car business. I think about a GM at a Maserati store in Grandville, Michigan who was a world renowned balloon pilot, one of the very best out there, actually consulted on UP, Put that aside, said, Hey, I wanna come work for the Ziegler Auto Group. Anybody else you think of, Mike? Yeah.

I think we've got a, I mean, we have an MMA fighter that came to work for us. He's a sales professional on our Al cart store. A lot of different backgrounds. Right? It's so interesting to see the success people have with different backgrounds across this ag.

Yeah. So how has your background in football? And we will go there even though it was super long ago because it's interesting to people. How has that benefited you as you've led a team here at the Zigler Auto Group? And you've created the culture that is uniquely Zigler.

Yeah. I think there are a lot. I always tell people that, you know, playing sports and working at a dealership are about the 2 closest things that you can get. The camaraderie, the time you spend together, but the competitiveness. Yeah.

Right? Competition. And that was the word of the year for my stores here in Kalamazoo was competition. And, you know, when things get tough and things get competitive, the cream rises to the top. Yeah.

And, there's no coincidence why, you know, we say winners win. There's no coincidence why people have success. You know, Mel Tucker said success leaves clues. Yeah. And, I truly believe that.

And there's a lot of things that we do here at the auto group, and that's why we're successful.

So name a couple.

So I I mean, just think of all the performance groups we have. Yeah. I mean, I I know I know buddies that are at Fortune 500 companies, Fortune 100 companies. They don't have that. The investment into the group, the speakers on a regular basis, the things that Aaron Ziegler has decided to do to invest in our people is what sets us apart.

And, I always tell people, you know, I've seen a lot of leaders in my day, but leaders that, you know, have vision and execute on that vision is a whole different thing. Yeah. And there's only a few people that can do that on a high level and consistently. And that's what sets us apart is it starts at the top and it works its way down. And it kinda it's an it's an infection.

It gets it gets into everybody. It's contagious. It's contagious.

So so the one specific example you gave are performance groups or best practice sessions.

Yeah.

That's unique in this industry because that's that's leaders who compete against each other coming together to share best practices, things that make them successful. Talk about how that sharing in a very selfless way to help other people win in a very competitive environment because you wanna win versus one of the other Ziegler stores. How is that similar to sports? Like, we compete to win together, not to compete to win over.

Yeah. Competition will bring the best out of everybody. And I think that's the way we see it here. Yeah. Is when I go to a best idea session and, you know, somebody's sharing something, and I'm like, wow.

I'm gonna take that idea, and I'm gonna use it here, and it makes us better. Yeah. Well, then we're really competing. I think that's when, you know, you have, you know, a really high achieving team is when your hardest workers are your most talented individuals, and they're willing to share and compete. And, I mean, that's what it's all about.

We want competitors. Yeah. And and the only way to do that is to, in everything we do, share, collaborate, and compete at a high level, and that's how we all get better. Yeah.

Yeah. Mike, thoughts on that? Yeah. You know, Sam, Zach, we had a leadership session this morning and about a half hour before the session officially began, you see leaders across our organization connecting and collaborating, sharing ideas, asking about goals, asking about dreams. And I think it's that culture of connection, that culture of sharing that makes us unique.

And as Zach said, it's contagious and you can feel it when you walk into our dealerships. You can feel the difference.

Alright. So thinking about this award, what are the specific metrics that have allowed us to win this so many years in a row? What is this award based on?

So a large portion of it, Sam, is actually based upon a survey that is sent out, anonymously to our, team members across the group. So they have to fill that survey out on, things all revolved around culture, around engagement, around communication, things that we do to recognize them, things that Zach alluded to with Ziegler University, their career path, their development. So tons of questions revolved around that.

Yeah. And where did we score the best? Like, what did you see some of those reports? Or do you see them? Maybe you don't understand.

You actually do you actually do get some feedback on that. So so some of our highest areas were actually, recognition was a very high area and communication. And it's neat to see some of the things that we've brought online, including this podcast. Yeah. And some of the live streams, the town halls that Aaron Ziegler does, the monthly sales calls that you do, Sam, just that communication.

When you think about top performers in any role, they wanna know what's going on. Yeah. They wanna be communicated with, but they also wanna be recognized. And we have so many things across the ZAG that we do for recognition as well. That's a huge part of our culture.

Yeah. So when you think about, every contributor, like a sports team, everybody on that team is important. Right? Everybody on that team is valued and and worthy of being recognized. It is interesting how in our auto group compared to other places, how recognition, isn't top down.

It's flat. Like, everyone gets the opportunity to recognize across group. Zach, tell us a little bit about some of the opportunities that team members get to both recognize and be recognized at Yes.

I think there's a few things. Obviously, we have the diamond drops and, you know, it's there's nothing more gratifying too than when you get, like, a vendor or you get, like, a family member that brings you a diamond drop. I mean, that's how you know it's working.

Yeah.

And then, you know, we have our luncheons where we recognize, you know, top performers. There's a thing we do here. We send out just a monthly email. You know, and we recognize everybody. We have, the, you know, the office hero.

Yeah. So who in the office, you know, went above and beyond? Yeah. And, you know, that's not normally a position or positions that are recognized. And, frankly, they deserve it.

They're one of the biggest reasons why we're able to do what we do. So just things like that. The little things often sometimes make the biggest impact.

So let's talk specifics about this diamond drop thing. You mentioned diamond drops. To me, before I came to be part of the group, it meant nothing. And in fact, it was almost something you could make fun of. Diamond drop is deer dropping.

Well, you know what? I I don't know what it sounds like, but it doesn't sound like

What's Jim Jim call it?

Yeah. There's Olympic hockey gold medalist, Jim Craig, who's a big part of our team who does consulting, with us on the side, who led the training session this morning with our own leader, Ben Coops, initially even said, I don't get it. Right? But once you've received 1, once you give 1, you actually get it, Mike. Tell us a little bit about what is it and where did it come from.

Yeah. So this idea actually came from our culture team, way back in, I think, 2005 or 2006. And, basically, it's a handwritten note that's available to every employee or every team member across the auto group. We actually train on it with every month, all the new, employees that come on board, they learn how to recognize others, how to look for somebody doing something good, whether it's for each other, whether it's for a customer, or so forth. And anybody can write them.

They're so powerful, and sometimes they're even more powerful and it's more meaningful if you get one from a fellow team member than it is getting one from your manager.

Yeah. So, thinking about that, one of the toughest things in any industry, but even more in the auto industry, is having a great idea and getting that idea to stick. So you come up with an idea in 20 or 10 years ago or however long. It's like, hey, let's have everybody write nice notes to each other. Right?

Yep. The fact that that stuck and became a part of the culture, how did that stick? What was it that that the team that Aaron did to make that an important part of the culture? And, and how did we, you know, in the auto industry is with any industry, sometimes you hear an idea and you're like, yeah, that's a great idea, but I'm just gonna wait until that dies down. And then I don't have to think about it anymore.

Or you get super negative people that are like, Hey, yeah. How does that help me sell more cars? And does it, what was the difference between having that idea and then getting that to execute so that it became part of the culture?

Yeah. That's a very real world question, right, Sam? You think back in the day when we launched these things, we had about 9 stores, about 500 employees. Yeah. And to see it still going today, even with all of our new locations, it's amazing.

So the answer is, as leadership, as leadership team, we modeled it. So the leaders modeled it. Yeah. But then we also had ambassadors from our Z Force, from our culture team within each store, each rooftop, that it was their goal to really model that as well. And kind of like Zach said, you know, it was contagious, but it's almost like when you start a little fire and put more kindling on it, it just spreads and goes, it spreads like wildfire pun intended.

But Mike, it doesn't help sell cars. It doesn't help service cars.

What feels better? Receiving or giving?

Oh, good. You know what?

That is

a great question.

And I think How

do you answer that?

I mean, in my personal opinion, it's giving. Yeah. You know? And I there's nothing I enjoy more sitting there and writing something nice to somebody that has gone above and beyond Yeah. And deserves some recognition.

Yeah.

It doesn't have to be public because not everybody likes public recognition Yeah. Which we have found out in culture surveys. And frankly, recognition is one of the biggest pieces in these surveys that we get that our staff want and need and cherish. But it's just a very simple thing that you can take literally a minute. And there's nobody better.

This is

the king of diamond drivers. The king of diamond drivers.

Thank you.

Yeah. We're gonna name it after him. The diamond drivers. It's a Mike Van Ryn diamond drivers.

There you go.

So so Mike helped to create that as part of our tradition. Aaron leaned into it, and it's become part of culture. You had to continue that here at t at Ziegler here in Kalamazoo. You had to double down on it so that it became part of the culture. There's something, you know, we don't wanna sound too touchy, but there's something vulnerable about writing someone accolades.

Right? And standing up at a meeting, which we do. Right? Yeah. So there is a free lunch that we do once a month, but it's not a free lunch because you gotta bring a diamond drop to it.

There's something vulnerable about standing up in front of a fellow team member and reading a compliment. There's a lot of cultures out there that are so toxic that you can't get away with that. Talk to us about that. How how did you take this idea, Zach, and make it an important part of culture here at team,

So You just gotta make it a habit. You know? And I think you said it. It starts from leadership and, you know, everybody is a leader. You're either in influencing somebody positively or negatively, and it's a choice.

Yeah. And you can choose to, you know, influence those around you positively, and this is a simple way you can do it.

What would have diamond drops done at, the Western Michigan, football, locker room?

You know, I don't know what they would have done, but I'm sure it would have had a, an a good impact on it. We might not have gone 1 and 11. We might have won 2 games, which would have doubled our

So to PJ, that might have helped

in the beginning. Right? I think he's doing fine. But, you know, I do I do see the, I just I do see from employees on a regular basis. I just see how they react when they get it.

Yeah. And, you know, people that have been in this company for a long time, they can take it for granted. Yeah. And, you know, some of our leaders can take it for granted, but I encourage everybody as a refresher just, you know, as we go into going for year 7 of, you know, best and brightest. Yeah.

That's a big piece of it.

So an auto group that values as a core part of culture recognition through this thing called Diamond Drops. Props to you for helping to make that part of culture. And, you know, it's cool that that's a continual focus. You mentioned another thing that's fascinating in the auto industry and it's C Force, right? It's this group.

They're not getting together to go sell a car together. They're getting together to do what, Mike?

Well, you know, back in the day we just selected the right people, the people that had the right energy, the right positivity, put them around a table. And we said, this is our culture team. We coined the phrase Z Force a few years ago, but, they're passionate about people. They're passionate about doing the right thing and their culture. Yeah.

And then what evolved from that has been amazing. With the Diamond Drops, our champion of excellence award, which is, given and it's peer nominated, but it's selected within each rooftop 4 times a year.

Yeah.

And it's based around our values of passion, reputation, integrity, drive, and execution.

Mhmm.

Anybody can win it. Yeah.

I mean,

we've had porters win them, detail, office, any position across the group. And that's continued on too. The other, huge award for us, which we do one time at our annual holiday party, is our legacy tribute. You guys have been part of those.

It's amazing. Just a

huge award. And often, there's, not a dry eye in the room when we award those.

So

Yeah. Especially this last year, you know, with Bill O'Hare, a father getting to read his legacy tribute to his son. I mean, there's That's powerful. Better than that. It's a huge deal.

Right?

It's a significant, moment of recognition. How do you define culture

in your role? Culture's fluid, so it's changing every day. And that's why we're intentional. We use words world class culture and building. Yeah.

We're always building the culture. So Yeah. It can be different in every store, and it's something they feel. And it's all about the people.

Yeah.

And it's not about the words you say, but it's about how you make people feel. Yeah.

So it is tricky in in corporate culture. Oftentimes, the more you talk about it, the more you lose it. If you focus to it on it too much, sometimes it becomes something you become so proud of, it disappears, and that can be a culture killer. So it's fascinating here at the Ziglar Auto Group. There's actually groups that meet across the group, not to revenue generate, but to defend that culture, to think about it, to be intentional about it.

What's one thing other than the items you just spoke about that's come from Z Force that's helped to contribute to that the fluidity or the development of culture over time, Mike.

Well, they actually, about 5 years ago, defined our culture, and we have that posted in all of our stores. So it's a Ziegler culture defined. And then our customers actually see that too, which is pretty cool deal.

It's like,

what are their auto group or what are their even company has their culture defined on a wall for customers to see and employees to see. So that's one thing. They've done so many different things. You know, we read books together on culture, and I've got The Culture Code by Daniel Coyle. Also, I have The Energy Bus by John Gordon.

And then what happened there is it spreads out to the other stores

Yeah.

And they're reading books with their teams to get better about continuous improvement. So things like that. We've had them involved in our culture surveys across the group as well. And it's just neat to see too. And I I don't believe it's a coincidence, but all the people that have been involved in those culture teams across the years, majority of them have been promoted from within

and

are still with us.

Yeah. Yeah.

Alright. So one item to talk about and then we'll come back to the big question, which in my mind is this, how does all this culture creation that ended up resulting in the ward result in car sales and car service and delivering on our mission statement? Because if anything, we're competitive. If nothing else, we're competitive. Right?

We are. Are we competitive Zach? Like, I think there's few places that are as competitive as, as we are. And so it's remarkable that we take a moment out often to focus on some of those core things that prep us for that competition. So Zigler speaker series, we have people come into the auto group from outside our industry and just talk.

Most recently, we had a Nashville singer songwriter talk about how to share stories. We had a bombing victim come in and talk about her struggle being, impacted and affected by the, the marathon or the, the Boston marathon bombings. We've had a NASA NASA pilot that said, hey. I wanna give back to, military families that have lost loved ones in the military. How does that contribute to culture, Mike?

Well, you know, great companies give their team members things to look forward to. Yeah. And that's what our culture is all about and the training development that we do. And, Aaron Ziegler is very, very supportive and, just loves to learn himself and continually improve. Yeah.

And he's aggressive and competitive as we know. Yeah. So it's neat that he puts, such, high emphasis on that. So the guest speaker thing is something that's just been awesome. We and we started that back in 2012 and have continued that.

And people learn professionally,

but

they also learn personally. Sometimes they're even bringing family members in to hear those speakers,

which is really neat. So, but all of these things end up making us better selling cars and servicing cars and delivering to our customers every single day. Zach, how does listening to a fighter pilot or a bombing victim or a Nashville singer songwriter, how does that help me sell cars? Inspiration.

Right. It gives you something to look towards, you know, because those are people and every instance of those stories, there's some type of failure Yeah. That they've had. Yeah. And failure equals growth.

And it shows you, hey. Like, listen. When you Yeah. You fail on a daily basis. Yeah.

Fail fast and learn. Yeah. Right? And that's the only way you're gonna get better is by failure. I know it's not something that everybody loves to talk about, but every single one of those speakers Yeah.

It's you can always identify it back to something.

It's not specific to the auto industry. It's life. It's human nature. Right?

Right. And those things are applicable to your work, but at home, just as much. Right? Yeah. And I think that's the cool part is it's in we're investing not just in you as an employee, but we're investing you as a person

finance manager in Lowell, Zach Cardes. And he said his first guest speaker was when he was 13 years old Coming in with that. And how neat is that? Now he fast forward, he's been successful in sales and now he's a finance manager for us. But he was inspired.

Exactly. He was inspired when he was 13.

My first time ever stepping foot on this campus was Jim Craig speaking. Mhmm. That was the first I'm like, oh, this is awesome. They must do this all the time. Right.

But at the same time, I'm like, this is pretty cool bringing in a gold medalist to speak. And that was my first time ever here.

And to hear his experience in the Olympics going from, we will never beat the Russians.

Yeah.

The greatest sports moment in the history of American sports to we just beat the Russians, right, in in the Olympic contest. Yeah. What it took for him to get from a to b helps me. Now not every speaker lands. Sometimes we talk about who is our favorite, who is our least favorite.

Sure.

I really like Damon West. He talked about how he was arrested, went to jail for life in Texas. And basically had a mindset shift, totally rethought his life, came out on the other side better and is giving back in super interesting ways. Who's your favorite speaker?

I don't know if I have, like, one favorite in particular, but you said, like, not everyone lands, but there's something you can learn from every single oh, I mean, there's something that I've picked from. I can't even remember all of them. Like, one of them is advertising is something you pay for for being unremarkable. Yeah. Like, that's something that spoke for me, and I don't even remember who

said said that. Okay. Speakers. Yeah.

You've probably figured of it. You probably know, Mike. But, you know, it's not just one in particular. That's what I love about it, though. It's because you can get something from from every single person.

So part of that though is your own mindset coming into it. Because some people come into anything in life and say, this is boring and, and go to sleep and who loses it?

It's just like our best idea sessions. Right? You can get out of it.

What you want to get out of it. Yeah. I gotta agree with you. Damon west was, was phenomenal. We've had so many.

It's hard to pick 1. Right? And it's neat to see too because every time we bring one in, I'll get text messages or emails from different people. That was the best speaker we've ever had.

You're like, Oh, it wasn't that interesting.

It resonates with everybody in different ways.

Was it Ben Nimpton? Who was the guy that went and took the bet to go do all these bucket list items and really was inspired to do that. You know, I'll tell you the other interesting thing about the speaker series and getting exposed to all these different people. I can say that I've met Tom Izzo. I've learned from Tom Izzo and his experiences as I see him struggle and have successes and overcome adversity.

It actually motivates me even real time in life. Right. Ben Nimpton, right. To be able to say, Hey, I know the guy that had a beer with Obama on a dare. It kind of emboldens me to go take that next customer.

And when I get a no to try again and again and again and again. And yet, Mike, what would you say to our other auto dealer friends or anybody out there? That's like, Hey, you know what? You're an auto group focus on selling cars, focus on servicing cars. Don't, you know, all this other stuff, it's non revenue generating.

There are a lot of companies that say that.

Yeah. And I would say just, it pays dividends. So to our listeners out there, whether they're in the automotive industry or business in general, you start small

and

you can grow up from there and find the right people that are passionate about culture.

Wait, don't give people the tips. We're not actually though, that's an interesting point because it's not about knowing what to do. Right?

It's about the right people.

It's about the right people and it's about what, Zach? About execution, man.

You have to execute.

Not everybody can execute, can they? Not everybody can execute.

Yeah. So start small and I mean, if if you're looking at bringing guest speakers in, maybe grab a local coach, you know, to come in and motivate, inspire your team. Grab the right people, pull them around a table, talk culture, and see what they come up with. And that's called empowerment, right? Empower your teams to build a culture.

Look at some books, a couple of these books we just mentioned too, the Culture Code and the Energy Bus. Two great books to start with. There's so many resources out there.

What year did the speaker series start?

Started in 2012. 12. So, with Jim Craig actually was our

12 years. It's gone long and strong for, and how many speakers a year about,

about 5 to 8 speakers a year typically.

Yeah. So this is gonna be an unfair question. If you had to put your finger on one thing that has led to this award so many years back to back, and not only that award, by the way, Glassdoor best and brightest, Glassdoor best places to work, an auto dealership having best work life balance. Like, who in the car business has work life balance? Right?

We're actually we have better work life balance, I think, than do you remember who some of them were maybe Starbucks. There were a couple that were kind of.

Yeah, absolutely.

Is there one thing or is it all things?

That's a really tough question. You're right, Sam. I don't know that it's one thing, but I'd say it's all about the people and the experience they provide each other for our culture and our customers.

It definitely isn't one thing. I think the fact that we invest in our people and we care about all I say 4 fires. Right? You've got your spiritual, mental, emotional, and physical fires. Like, the things that we have in place, we didn't even talk about athletic mentors and and that aspect of it.

And the holistic approach of investing in people Yeah. Shows people you care.

Outside of just that direct line of sales.

And we care. Yeah. And I think that's what it comes you know, loving each other and being a part of a organization that truly cares is why we get the results we do.

Alright. You can't say athletic mentors and just throw it out there because that is a part of our culture. What what is it, and what do we do with them?

I think everybody should get involved, but it's our way that we can kind of track and measure how we're doing physically. Right? Yeah. And I think that's one thing that, not every every corporation focuses on is, hey, how's your physical health doing? You know, we have our walk challenges, lunch challenges, you name it.

What is it now?

So once a month, there's a competition. It's a health challenge. Right? And they administer it. They help us track it, and we do a celebration at the end of the month.

Walk challenge, step challenge.

What is it this month?

Minutes. This month, it's drinking. Drinking. Water.

Water. Water. Water. Not

drinking water. Yeah. And the idea is that if we're, physically healthy, we can better connect with each other, we can better serve each other. And, you know, it's interesting, as strong a culture as we have, 27 100 employees, it's not everybody that chooses to join that.

Why? It's a very small percentage.

It is. It is.

I I don't have a reason as to why other than I would encourage people to do it. It's fun. And once again, it's competition. Yeah. That's the thing is is you get to see every single day where you line up against everybody else in the auto group, including Aaron Ziegler.

You know, you get to say, Hey, am I beating him in the steps challenge? And it's fun.

Aaron was winning in the lunge challenge until he literally broke his leg. Yeah.

Broke his kneecap.

Could not go any further. And, you know, one of my favorite challenges recently was the striker challenge. So we took on a step challenge. It was step for step against striker. The Ziegler Auto Group 27 100 employees against striker 35,000 employees.

And Stryker CEO got on with Aaron and they threw the gauntlet down and and put the challenge and guess what? You would think 27100 versus 35, they would have just crushed us, killed us. We did come in 2nd place, which was frustrating, but it wasn't as far apart as you would think. And more people came into the health culture with that than ever had with any other competition. So it is competition is healthy, especially in a healthy culture.

Absolutely. Healthy competition is healthy. Yeah. But, yes, that is one of the pieces that that we have here that definitely differentiates us from everybody else.

Yeah. Mike, any final thoughts on the award and what it's taken to put this together

Yeah. Year after year?

Sam has become a tradition for us, and, we're just very thankful to our teams across the Zag for everything they do for each other and for our customers. So congratulations, team Ziegler.

Yeah. Congrats, team Ziegler. Zach, any closing thoughts on No. Congratulations.

Let's do it again. Let's do it. 7 7 in a row is is coming up soon.

7 in a row. Let's do it. Hey, team Ziegler. Thanks for being here. Appreciate everybody, and we'll see you, next time on the Driving Vision podcast.

A big thanks to all who contributed to this week's podcast, including Mike Van Ryn and Zach Terrell. Until next week, how are you driving vision

today?